Bootstr Episode 3 with Adriaan from Simple Analytics
Episode 3 - Adriaan
===
[00:00:00] So welcome all. This is already the third episode. It is going so fast. The third episode of BootstrFM. We started two weeks ago on Wednesday as well for the very first time with our guest Dom, who quickly turned into my co host now. So we're doing this Twitter spaces together. I want to welcome you all and thank you for tuning in.
I'm Erwin, founder of Tailscan, Bootstrapper myself, with some failed projects and also one successful project, luckily, under my belt and the last month or so, I have been observing in the Indie Hacker and Bootstrapper community that we have a lot in common, and sometimes also things that we disagree with. Uh, and I find that talking on Twitter is great, and conversing works, and sharing ideas and learning and all that stuff works.
Uh, but I always felt there was something missing, and that's what this Twitter space is for, [00:01:00] to, give anyone a voice, uh, chat with each other about recent news or things that keep our community busy. And Dom, would you like to introduce yourself as well?
Yes. Hey guys, I'm Dom. The product I'm working on, Some of you might've already seen it . It's a SaaS that turns your Notion pages into a professional website and been working on this now for two and a half years almost . yeah, crossed like 10k a couple of months ago. And, uh, really stoked about this and been also bootstraming a couple of other products. Recently, I'm really curious like to share about this in the future as well. But for now, I feel like that's my main focus. So yeah, um, that's about it . I've just seen more and more people coming in. I'm going to give the mic back to Erwin.
Thank you for the mic. Thank you, Dom. Um, so a little bit about the concept, for those of you that haven't listened in or tuned in from previous episodes, we have a main [00:02:00] guest, Adrian, whom I will ask to introduce in just a second, whom I will be asking a couple of questions, to discover what Adrian is up to, what we can learn from him. What he's building and, uh, his views on specific matter. And then after that, we will open up for a half an hour, maybe 40 minutes of discussion, with a couple of questions and or statements and see who has any thought about this. If you would like to give your two cents about those things, later on, I will repeat this as well, you may request to speak. There's a button on the bottom left, to join in and participate in the virtual table, so to speak . This recording, by the way, will be available at some point on our website. We're still working on that, but it will come very, very, very soon, I promise. I also want to give out a very quick shout out to Natko, by the way, who did our branding, the logo, and the banner. It [00:03:00] looks, honestly, it looks Better than I would ever be able to even imagine.
So thank you. Thank you very much for that. I think Natko is listening in himself as well. So if you would like to give him a follow, just click on his profile. Um, Adrian, would you like to kick us off and Tell us a bit about yourself
Yeah, sure. So, I'm Adrian. I'm from the Netherlands. I live in Amsterdam, and I'm a big, privacy guy. And that's also how I started my business in the past. just out of curiosity. To like, yeah, what can we do to make the world a little bit of a better place? Um, and I'm also traveling a lot. So that's how I met you two guys. And yeah, that's it in a nutshell.
Awesome. Thank you. And I have a couple of questions prepared for you and the very first one that I was thinking was, what the very first [00:04:00] steps were when you wanted to validate the idea for simple analytics was that, did you just start building it right off the bet, did you do some market research beforehand, what did you do?
Yeah. So my, my background is in tech and tech and marketing is not really on the same page, or at least not in my book. So when I started with simple analytics, or just before that, actually, I was, I think Nomading in Riva, or no Tenerife, I think I always mix those two up. Anyway, I was there working on a project for a client. I was a freelancer and I was developing their front end and they asked me like, Hey, can you implement, uh, a little script? And that's the script of Google Analytics and that's. Always people are doing that, right? So that's not something new. But at that time, I was like, yeah, but I don't really wanna, wanna do that.
So I did that, and I didn't feel great about it. So I was like, okay, fuck [00:05:00] it. I'm just gonna, gonna do something myself. So I was complaining to my girlfriend about it and she said like, yeah, go, go. Do something with it, build a little project. You always build projects. So, so build something like that.
I was like, okay, okay. I will build something. So then I started building it and yeah, I really did it differently than, than the times before. So to come back to your question, uh, validating the idea, what I did was building it super fast. So instead of like, trying to build it in like 12 months or something, I really tried to build a very simple version, hence the name, in three months, and it actually worked, and it was super limited, like I only had page views, didn't even have visitors or anything like that. And people were accepting that. I wouldn't believe it, but people accepted that. Another thing to, to validate the idea or before committing to it is, keep it short, but also use the tools, you know, like there's a lot of developers that [00:06:00] love to learn new things and there's nothing wrong with that.
But if you want to ship fast, then that's probably not the best idea. Or at least for me, it didn't work before. So yeah, that's how I changed this time and approach. Something else to really make it work was also getting accountability. And I got a membership on, uh, WIP. co from Mark, from Mark Kolmbrugge.
Um, you can also follow him on Twitter, interesting guy. And via that group, basically, you place a few tasks and you say like, oh, I did this and did that, but you also see a lot of other people doing the same and you're like, oh shit, I need to really, really keep my game up. So that really, really helped. Another thing was build in public. Everybody knows this, by now, I think, but that really, really helps as well. It's easy content and as a technical founder, you can still, uh, yeah, just share what you're doing. So it's an easy, easy share. And then, tell your friends, obviously. So try to. [00:07:00] Yeah, tell other people what you're doing.
So they will ask you next time, like, Hey, how is this going? And then, yeah, you need to answer. So it helps you to like, keep yourself accountable and to validate the idea after that period. So this is basically building it and how to not get stuck in building it. Um, validating was for me very easy as in, I put it on a product hunt. Almost nothing happened. Uh, then I put it on Hacker News and then boom, I was on the front page on the front row, for I think, eight hours or something and on the homepage for even more hours than that. And it was of course luck. But if that didn't happen, I wouldn't be sure if I would have validated the idea.
Maybe I would try another half year or something and if then you don't get enough traffic and not enough customers, then yeah, maybe stop and do something else. Um, so yeah, I was lucky with Hacker News and then I knew instantly like, okay, this is something that will [00:08:00] work. And, from that moment on, I just, kept growing it and kept building it.
Well, all right. This is quite unique. You don't hear from everyone that they've managed to get off Hacker News. on the first page for eight hours. It's crazy. Just curious, do you remember how many visitors came within those eight hours?
Um, yeah, I didn't track visitors. So for me, it was only page views. Um, so I think it was around 30, 000, page views. Not a hundred percent sure though, but I think If you Google it, there's a blog post, from Harry for marketing examples, and my partner also wrote an article about Hacker News and how to hack Hacker News. That got picked up by indiehackers. com, quite well. And that explains basically also how you, yeah, can hack Hacker News and yeah, how you can get go to the, or how you can get on the front page, but it's always a bit of luck involved. Like we try it a lot of times and yeah, sometimes it [00:09:00] works, sometimes it doesn't. And you never really know, when it works, but if it works, it's really nice.
Yeah, wow, for 30, 000 pageviews, I can imagine it's definitely worth it to kind of perfect that, uh, perfect that craft.
Yeah, you can give it a try.
Good payoff, definitely good payoff. Yeah, and if you could share one strategy or one tactic that you found, you know, unexpectedly beneficial in growing your user base over those years?
Yeah, so the main thing that really works for us was those over those Hacker News articles, but also more recently, we also work way more on, on Reddit. And thanks to Iron, my partner for that because he's very active there and that really helps. So that drives a lot of traffic. So for example, one thing that works well and we use that for another business. So together with, two co founders, so Iron and Dries, if you check my Twitter, you'll probably find them as well. And together we have a business called UniHosted [00:10:00] and UniHosted hosts, Unified Controllers in the cloud.
But it's, it's quite hard to get your first customers, right? So how do you get those first customers? You really need to be in front of them or at least, uh, know how to reach them. And yeah, Reddit is quite a good place to find your customers and you have many tools, right? And I think most of you know, uh, f5bot. com. If you don't know f5bot, use it to grow your business. And we set up some nice Telegram integration with a F5Bot and basically what it does is, uh, you set up some keywords. So for example, we sell, software for Unify routers. So we say, okay, Unify controller it's called.
So we search for Unify controller on Reddit and every time someone posts something about it or has a comment with the text in it, then we get like a Telegram message. And the Telegram message features like. Respond to that, like, Oh, I wrote something about it or, uh, it's not interested for us. And if it's interesting for us, then we just reply, uh, on the [00:11:00] comment or the post and get our users that way. And it really works well, like, I think, uh, we almost have like one third or half of our customers through Reddit by this strategy. So it's a very easy strategy. It's just a little bit of work, so you need to keep it going.
That's interesting. I personally do some of that as well, actually, um, but slightly different. So I've never heard about a five bot. I'm definitely going to check that one out. I do for X or Twitter specifically, it's a tweet deck or X pro. It's called these days. You do need Twitter blue for that, I think. But, if you basically open that up, you can select a couple of keywords and then you get a mention, whatever, on Twitter, if someone says something about it, then you can just, you know, offer them to try your tool, et cetera.
Oh yeah, and this is with those, columns, right? So you can set up some search keywords and then it will show in columns.
Yep, [00:12:00] exactly, exactly. For me personally, that would be like Tailwind and then Tool, something like that. Yeah. That works quite well. F5bot is a very nice one.
Yeah. It's just for Reddit, but yeah, oh, and also Hacker News, but we don't get that many mentions on Hacker News, but on Reddit it's a whole different game. Yeah. I would really advise everybody using that.
It's also free, by the way, which is amazing.
Yeah. It is just free. Yeah, so there's no excuse anymore.
I have , by the way, personally used F5bot like a lot of times for products. And I've done the exact same that you did. I just set up like a Slack notification and then I got like all my F5bot mentions and this is like invariable. And also, I don't know if you noticed this, but the tweet deck, or now it's called Xpro, like I had no idea about this, but yesterday I wanted to use it again for Helpkit and then I realized that Elon, hashtag Elon now, um, made it a paid feature. So I actually had to subscribe to, Twitter blue, I guess, or X pro now, to get [00:13:00] it for help kit. And I was like, so shocked. Cause I had like set up an entire process on TweetDeck before. And, uh, yeah, I guess that's the first smart kind of like monetization strategy they pulled off. Cause that's actually a valuable tool.
Well, were you're like your other settings just gone or?
No, luckily they were still there, but the whole UI looks different now, so I'm not sure how to feel about it. But. Like, UX wise it's the same, just the UI changed a bit, I guess.
Ah, nice. Yeah, I think we should use it as well then. Because, Twitter is always a very good source for this stuff as well. So, yeah, it's a, that's a good one, and you have now a blue checkmark. So, it's a win win, right? Or you don't mind?
Yeah, you also get a checkmark.
I think I'm lucky that I bought, Twitter Blue for Tailscan the account as well. At the same time, I suppose. Um, Adrian, the next question I have for you and something that both Dom and I actually were wondering, uh, Dom actually mentioned the question at first, how do you approach setting goals and milestones for your [00:14:00] projects? And how for Simple Analytics, for example, and how has this process evolved since the early days? I can definitely imagine that over the years, like, Simple Analytics is already out there for like five or six years. Did you polish, perhaps even perfected the approach of setting goals and milestones? How do you do it?
Yeah, that's a good question. There's multiple ways to do it, I think. And what the main takeaway is if a goal or and a milestone is helping you and giving you positive energy, then definitely do it. If it's not helping you or you're getting a bit of negative energy from it, then probably don't do it. So for example, when I started the second day I had 30 customers. So I think then the next goal was, was 50. I'm not sure. I'm just talking, uh, I don't know, straight from my mind. And so then I, I kept increasing the goal, not so much in customers, but more in MRR. And yeah, MRR is [00:15:00] something that is marketing gold.
So every time you have a new milestone, you'll share it and everybody is super happy with you. That's also, uh, how I got on Hacker News a few times after that by just sharing like, oh, uh, super analytics is now at a thousand MRR or something and people would. Maybe realize, or maybe still remember the previous post. And they were like, Oh, no, congrats. And then you're on the homepage again . Uh, a bit of luck, of course, but that's one way to do that. And yeah, so it changed over time. So in, in the beginning you set a few goals and you will set up some nice alerts that you get Stripe notifications or Telegram notification for every new customer.
And then I set up some nice notifications for when a customer was leaving. And those were like, like terrible. Like every time I got one of those, it was just like, uh, someone punching me in the face. It's like, Oh, it's the worst. So I would never recommend someone to do something like that. Just keep it positive . And yeah, at the end [00:16:00] of the month, you'll probably check your churn. So then, you know, like, okay, this is a good month or a bad month, or maybe I should, I don't know, um, make people cancel by phone or something like that, this is sarcasm, by the way, um, So yeah, something like that. So, adjust your, your goals into something that's, reachable and something, since Iron joined, we just set up a spreadsheet and we're trying to grow a percentage based on the previous month.
So we don't set like, a fixed milestone of like 18 K or something. We just say like, okay, we want to grow 5 percent per month and then you can just. So you can drag that percentage or the current MRR down, and then you see your goal in the future. And that's something that's more, useful, I would say. Because you can always try to focus more on, on the percentage instead of the final end number for that. And that's, that feels kind of nice. At the same time, we still share the MRR of course, because it's, [00:17:00] yeah, like I said, it's great for marketing, so definitely gonna do that.
We're now now at 24K, and something, so yeah, 25K, we should definitely, write about it and share it and people will be happy and dance with you, but yeah, that's how it basically evolved over time, so set bigger goals, make them only positive and yeah, look more at the percentage and check your churn once a month or maybe once a week to not get too much negative energy.
All right, okay. And one last, very last question before we move on to the discussion part where we invite anyone to speak with us in case they do want to share something. Last question for you, Adrian. Is there anything in particular that you would want to share to a potential person listening in right now thinking, oh, I really like all of this. Is there anything else? You would like to tell them when they are on Word Splitter, Journey?
[00:18:00] Yeah, of course, of course. I think Yeah, I'm not sure if most of us are having a tech background, but this is more for people with a tech background. Um, so there's a few ways of getting a clear mind. And for me, the clear mind, uh, wasn't there when I was doing my marketing myself. I was doing marketing and I saw competitors and some competitors were doing it. A better job than I did. And I also saw that those competitors usually had a marketing person in their team and I didn't have that and every time I was working on a feature, I had this nagging feeling, uh, somewhere in the back of my head saying like.
Yeah, you should do marketing. You focus on marketing now. Um, marketing is more important than this feature. And you like to build this feature, but go to marketing. I think this is very familiar for everybody. That's an IT bootstrapper, but, yeah. If that doesn't work, then maybe be clear with yourself and say, it doesn't work for me. So let's change it [00:19:00] into something else. Like let's try to find someone that can do the marketing. And I wasn't really looking for it. But, um, at some point Iron came on my path and we started talking and eventually he started working with me on simple analytics. Just one day a week and two days a week.
So we had a really long time to, yeah, get used to each other. See if we, uh, yeah, we'd kill each other on a Monday morning, but no, it was a really good match. And then we evolved from a team that. Or not a team, but just me, building lovely features that nobody saw, not nobody, but execrating a bit, um, to a team that now also sells the product way better, shares the product way better is more reached on Google, on Reddit, on Twitter, on LinkedIn.
So yeah, that's a major change in how I did run my business before and now. And yeah, I can highly recommend [00:20:00] everybody doing the same. If you have this nagging feeling in your head, yeah, try to fix it one way or the other, or you do it with pain yourself, or you find someone that really wants to help you. And of course you need to have like a great fit and, that can be difficult, but there are so many marketeers out there looking for, yeah, someone with a great idea, and, uh, so yeah, I think that's some advice that I would love to have gotten a few years back.
Cool. Great. Thank you. You're also helping me, make a bridge to the first discussion question. And we'll have it in a bit. Adrian, thank you very, very much for, coming and joining us this week and all your valuable insights. I'm definitely going to download F5 and who knows, end up with the co- founder next week, I think it's, uh, tempting the way you put it, for sure.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and he will share his side of the story, and I think that's super interesting as well. Thanks for having me, and, uh, let's start a [00:21:00] conversation.
So I'm gonna hand the mic to Dom. I think, Dom has discussion questions in front of him. Dom, would you like to take over?
Yes, I have. So first of all, thank you so much, Adrian. I absolutely loved like hearing your perspective. I've been following you for like years on Twitter and now actually like got to see you last year in Bangkok for the first time. And it's really, really inspiring. Your products was one of the first that I actually like really followed the whole build in public. So it was like really inspiring. Um, now what I'm like really excited about is moving on to the discussion part, which as I can see, we have 42 people right now tuning in, 43 I see, which is absolutely amazing because I want to get all of your opinion if possible.
The reason why I think BootstrFM is kind of a bit different and in some ways maybe better than a traditional podcast is because we get to like also ask you. all bootstrappers of Twitter kind of questions and you can all engage with it. And today we have particularly two, or maybe if we [00:22:00] get the time to, three questions that I'm really, really passionate about. And also want to get your opinion. The first one I want to actually start with, and that's amazing that Adrian kind of transitioned already into this, is something that probably a lot of you are asking yourself, and that is the question of kind of like solo founder versus co founder. And. Why? When is it a good reason to have a co founder?
Is it always a good idea? Is it sometimes a bad idea? Maybe just to give you a little bit of a background. Um, I personally have not yet really considered to have a co founder in most cases because I'm, my background is in sort of business and then I taught myself how to code. So I was kind of like a jack of all trades. But then in certain times, especially when like business got a bit rough and I felt a little bit depressed, I did feel extremely lonely. And it was like points at that specific time when I was like, Hmm, actually having a co founder can also be a really good supplement in terms, not [00:23:00] only to kind of substrate maybe your weaknesses, but also help you, if you have seen recently on twitter, there's always like disagreement that obviously you have, instead of one opinion, you have two opinions. And so it's, can be a bit, um, dangerous. So what I'm curious about is what do you think about this? I've, I don't want to mention names now, but I see a lot of friends here in the space that do have co founders. And I see a lot of that don't have co founders.
So if anyone wants to chime in, maybe Adrian already kind of. A bit. But yeah, would be curious also, maybe let's join first with Erwin. 'cause Erwin as I know is a solo bootstrap founder. So maybe can, you can share a little bit of like, why are you a solo founder and have you ever considered to have a co-founder?
Absolutely. Yeah. I think my opinion on this is a bit tough. I think I'm on both sides to be honest. So, uh, Tailscan is something that I built myself and there's a couple of [00:24:00] other. Uh failed projects before that I also built myself, and building myself was really, you know, starting out is, was for me anyway, was quicker, uh, to just build and figure out if there was a time and a place for the product, etc. So I think I naturally grew to just doing it solo. However, recently I have one other One other venture. I don't say startup. It's just a project. It doesn't make that much money yet, but I do have a co founder for that and He is not technical Uh, but he has a huge network in the specific industry that we're in. And you know, is able to do sales a hundredfold, a hundred times better than me in that space. I think there's a right time and place for a co founder. If they have skills that you, or connections that you absolutely can't have or don't have. So yeah, I think I'm [00:25:00] speaking for both sides. I think there's a time and place for it.
Awesome. Yeah, I feel like When you have a skillset that is really, complimentary, I think then it makes a lot of sense. And in terms of your second startup where you say specifically, okay, I see that there is a need where I'm kind of lacking. I definitely see that there is a, a need for a co founder. It's a very interesting question I always ask myself. I've been in both situations, I guess. As of now, I really enjoy being alone. I really like that I have the autonomy of kind of doing like what I want to and not really having to listen to someone else. But then sometimes I would really prefer to have a different sort of, um, I would say like maybe different angle.
But for these things, there are like a lot of, that's why Twitter exists. I feel like being on Twitter kind of already means that you have a second, third, fourth, fifth co founder. And it's like a huge, like a co founder. Cohort, I guess, but obviously you cannot share all your [00:26:00] deepest details and like problems that you have. We have like Alfonso tuning in, wanting to speak. Um, I know that Alfonso has a co founder, so I'm really curious what his thoughts are on this.
Yeah. Hey guys, I'm Alfonso. I'm the co founder of Journalist. ai. which is a content automation platform, and yeah, I do have a co founder, but I think, I was never looking for a co founder per se, so I actually met Vasco, that's my current co founder, I started working for him actually as a freelancer for another project that he had called Vetted, which was a marketplace, um, and then we kind of sort of, we built the relationship and we started gaining more trust in each other.
Eventually, we became friends. I got some shares from the marketplace. And then I decided, oh, I really want to do, start something on my own. [00:27:00] Um, and I'd like to have you on my side, on the 50 50 split. And then, yeah, he was also eager. So now we're trying to sell Vetted, because it's really hard to have like a 95 slash 5 percent split. You know, it's not good. So now on Journalist we're 50 50 and things work so much better and everything's better. So yeah, I do think it's really hard. I don't think I would have chosen a co founder like, oh, I need a co founder. And then try to pick someone. Like, I don't think I could trust somebody just like that.
So with Vasco, it was like a year and a half of working together. Right, so he knows my weak spots. I know his weak spots. I'm very hot tempered. I want to get shit done now. I have no patience. Sometimes I'm a bit aggressive with the customers. And he [00:28:00] brings in his More cool vibe and, we just kind of complement each other very well. He has no experience on coding whatsoever. So basically I dictate everything that happens on the software side. And I don't really like to do marketing. I mean, now I'm kind of shitposting on Twitter, which is kind of fun, but You know, like the formal marketing thing of like recording videos, Google ads, all that.
Um, he enjoys doing that and I don't. So yeah, that works quite well. But yeah, there's a lot of times where we face disagreements. And, you know, I mean, we're humans. So maybe I shout out like, uh, some bad words and bad name and he does the same. And then. Next day we come together and okay, uh, let's get over this and keep going. Because if you're building something with someone for like a year, two years, it's going to be points of friction. [00:29:00] So it's just like a relationship, right? You're not going to break up. Just when you have a disagreement. So,
Yeah. At the same time, I think you're also pulling each other from the negatives, right? Like sometimes you don't feel like working or you're just not in the right space and then it's just super nice if you can talk to someone who's in the same business and totally understands it and just pulls you out of there. I think that's super, super useful as well.
Yeah. Sometimes like. I'm not motivated and Vasco is like, come on man, like get up, let's, let's get this shit done. Or some other times I'm like, Vasco, you're not doing enough. Like let's work more faster, be more efficient. So we kind of push each other in a healthy way. So that's good.
Yeah, exactly.
That's awesome. I really appreciate also hearing this kind of different kind of angle as a very wholeheartedly solo bootstrap [00:30:00] founder. Hearing you all talk about having co founders actually does make a bit reconsider, I guess. For everyone now new to tuning in, I've seen like a lot of new faces here. We are talking about right now we have our discussion round. We just interviewed Adrian from Simple Analytics, and they're now talking about the question solo founder versus co founder and why. And, uh, we just had Adrian and Alfonso talking about all the benefits of having actually a co founder. Erwin right now being mostly a solo Bootstrap founder, was talking a bit about the ups of also being solo, but also it's working on a side project with a co founder. So I do see more and more people actually being interested in having a co founder. Um, we also have Gamify Karan wanting to speak. So if you want to chime in, we'd be super curious to hear your thoughts on this.
Hi everyone. Good evening.. Okay, so, yeah. So I don't know much about how it works for everyone, but yeah, I have tried being a [00:31:00] partner with one of my colleagues. So I think it gives all away, you can say strength to you. So that, you know, keep the thing going instead of someone lacks or so other one, you know, uh, take part and make it forward. So I think it works and it also build, you know, confidence in you if you do something good and then, you know, you have someone to discuss with or share with. So yeah, I think it works. Being a solo for nowadays is also good way in a good way. You know, you can find a lot of people over the internet and you can have a conversation like we are having today. So I think, yeah, it's good both ways.
Awesome. Awesome. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Really interesting. Um, I've also seen that Arvid is joining, one of my favorite boot bootstrap founders as well, who I know has bootstrapped his previous company, I think with his partner. So if you're listening in, don't feel pressured of me to talk. [00:32:00] If you have something to share, just let us know, in the meantime as well. I might also move on to the second question. Maybe we can circle back to the first after a while. Um, the second question also ties a bit to what Adrian was talking earlier, because Adrian now after successfully bootstrapping Simple Analytics is also working on a new project with also, I think, two other co founders.
And one question Erwin and I were like discussing about and really curious to hear your thoughts on is what is your opinion on having multiple Projects that you're currently simultaneously working on, and if you're working on multiple projects, we are also really, really keen on knowing your techniques that you found that you find effective, because it's certainly very stressful if you're working on multiple projects, um, to find some sort of like clarity and focus.
I've been sort of now also working on multiple projects and to be really, really honest, I still have not found a really, really great way. of organizing time. My brain is very scattered from one project idea to [00:33:00] the other. I have some marketing ideas there, some marketing ideas there. So I have seen a lot of like founders talking about strategies, but ultimately I'm really curious how you're handling this. Um, I want to just quickly get, um, Adrian's thoughts on this again. Cause I think he mentioned that earlier. Maybe you can chime in there.
Yeah, no worries. Um, yeah, I can share something about it with Unihosted and the way. It works well for us is because we have Dries. And Dries is basically the brain behind the whole company. So he set up the product before he even met us. Maybe he can share something later if he wants as well. I see he's listening. Anyway, but, um. He built the product, so built the whole ecosystem around it to create, the unified controllers, that we ship. And then he asked us like, Hey, you wanna join me in this adventure? Because I need some people that already did it before. [00:34:00] So, Iron and I were like, okay, this is, an interesting opportunity. Let's see, if we can make this work. So we started talking about it and eventually we said like, okay, let's book one week, um, in the south or in the north of the Netherlands. In the beautiful freeze land. And then work on it and try to crank out the first version. So that's what we did. And we went there and we were focused very well and it worked really well. And then we said, okay, like, let's make some deals, let's, make some agreements, like if someone goes to work full time on it, then we shift a little bit of the stocks we share, or how do you say it in English, and, let's keep working on it, um, Iron and I work like one day a week on it, uh, and Dries a lot more, but it's also more of his baby, so to say, and that works quite well.
But what works even better is having such a week. So then we thought, okay, why don't we go to Bali? And now we are in Bali [00:35:00] with the three of us. Uh, the first week is working on simple analytics. So the next week is working on unihosted. And yeah, I think that's the perfect way to do it because you can focus. You don't need to switch contexts all the time. Uh, so it, it works really well for us like this. But also, I think, yeah, because we have someone who is really capable of running it and making someone responsible of the main part, I think is the key here. And with Simple, um, Iron and I are doing this and with Unihosted it's more shared, but Dries is basically the biggest brain behind it.
Awesome. I just saw that we actually also have Dries in, Dries, do you want to quickly share your thoughts as well? Yeah. That's awesome.
Yeah, of course. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for listening in. And thank you, Adrian, for the kind words, this month in Bali is like somewhat a additional steroids of the week in north Holland. And I think of the [00:36:00] whole, yeah, having a co founder conversation, like for me, it's, what made it successful is like, if you're a technical guy or technical in this case, technical co founder, and you're really into programming and just want to work on the products. I knew that I was that kind of guy. And when I launched the first version of Unihosted, it was pure, like the product was working, but I had like zero marketing. And afterwards I learned a lesson there because I knew, okay, this is not my thing, this is really hard, um, like the marketing side and. If you're that kind of guy, then I would like 100 percent suggest having a, or partnering up with a co founder or co founders in this case. Because yeah, it makes it so much more fun. And also, yeah, what you guys were saying is that if you, you have these ups and downs, right. These people will just help you get through it. And because you have this balancing act of all the things that needs to be done, like you [00:37:00] can focus on the things that you are probably good at and they can focus on the other things. And of course, like, still there's sometimes that you have to work on something that you don't really like. But I think it's much more balanced. So, yeah, it's definitely a win, I would say.
Awesome. Awesome. I think like the concept of having focus weeks as well, sounds really, really interesting. Um, probably it helps you to focus, keep your head focused on one project versus the other. I earlier threw a little ball to Avid, um, in terms of him bootstrapping his SaaS product with his partner, which I think is true, but we will hear very soon if that is true. Arvid, if you have something to say about the question earlier, or also like. what we were just talking now, please chime in.
Well, thanks so much. Uh, yeah, I had some issues with Twitter spaces recently, trying to use it from the desktop and it's bizarre. Anyhow. Yeah, I want to talk about this. I have three experiences really with co [00:38:00] founders, which is nice because they are all three different versions. I have the one that actually worked out, the one that allowed me to build and sell a SaaS business. Obviously, that's where my, the biggest part of my story comes from. I have one that kind of worked, and I have one that worked really not at all. So I can go through all three of them. I think the two that were not as successful are probably most interesting in terms of how you can avoid that.
The one that was successful is the most, I guess, enjoyable to talk about, but I'm going to leave that to the end. I'm going to dive into the other ones first. The one that didn't work at all. Maybe that's the most important one. I was in all three of these, the technical person, right? The person building The stuff, the coder, pretty much the developer of the tool. The first one was a photojournalism file distribution app, kind of Dropbox for people who are, you know, uploading photos from Syria, like in the middle of the war using like a satellite internet connection or whatever. Just, you know, upload to one location and we would multiplex them into different agencies, just save them bandwidth.
That was the whole idea and that the idea wasn't [00:39:00] mine obviously, because I'm not a photojournalist, but we were kind of partnering. I was partnering. With a friend of mine who was a sys op or like a DevOps kind of person and the other guy was a photojournalist like a guy that actually had the problem And he was supposed to also be a marketing person and to be a salesperson and an operations person But he wasn't and the two of us on the technical team.
We were working super hard in all three of these projects I was working the exact same amount. I was putting in as much time as I had I was putting it all I had into the software product But that co founder just didn't do anything in terms of, we get one paying client and then kind of a co founder got like cold feet and refunded all the money to the client and just said, well, we're not going to do it. The worst and weirdest version of validation I've ever seen. Somebody actually paid us like a yearly subscription to what we had. And then the guy said, I love it. It was bizarre. So that was a really bad experience. It just meant like there was no fit [00:40:00] with this kind of founder, right? That guy was just focusing on his own, he was trying to build an agency at the same time or whatever.
I don't know. I'm not in contact with the guy anymore, unfortunately, cause he was kind of nice, but turned out he was not a good business partner. Now let's move to the second one. The one that kind of worked out. Another friend of mine, one had an idea, was the kind of business person. The other one was a designer. I was the technical guy, put in two days a week. Full time, each of these days, 20 hours a week, building a product for them. We were trying to build a local food marketplace in and around Berlin. You know, the fine capital of Germany that I lived in for a significant part of my life and we were trying to get people from inside the city to buy food from people outside the city that grew it.
That was the idea. It was a marketplace, which is really hard to bootstrap in many cases, right? It's hard to set up a small business that gets both customers and Customers for those customers. It's complicated. So that was tough and we kind of got there But we kind of also didn't because our [00:41:00] co founder the business guy that person again supposed to do Marketing and sales. He didn't really understand the market too. Well, he just had an idea But he didn't have experience in the market, so it took us years to get to any meaningful amount of revenue. At which point, both I and the designer left the company. The co founder, or marketing co founder, or CEO, I guess, the guy with the idea, took on other people and he pivoted the business.
And now it's something completely different. So, again The fit was there kind of because we liked each other, we were friends, but that doesn't mean that it's a valid or valuable business that came out of it, right? It just meant that I was putting in as much as I could, building the ideas that other people had, and well, didn't go anywhere because there was no marketing, there was no sales, there was no business strategy behind it. The project that worked out was, I guess, the biggest friend I could possibly have, my partner, my girlfriend, Danielle and I, we were founding Feedback Panda, and she had a problem, she was an online English teacher, I was [00:42:00] somebody who could build tools for people who need tools to be built around their tedious kind of bureaucratic tasks, she showed me the tasks she had, I built a tool that made it easier for her and all the people like her, and we built a viable tool SaaS business out of it. The reason why, and this is kind of, you know, survivorship bias, obviously codified into advice, so please take this with a lot of grains of salt, just add a lot of salt to this, please. I believe the reason why we were successful with this one, where we were not successful with the other ones before, or I was not, is that Danielle was Included and very active in the communities that our future customers were going to be part of.
Like she was in Facebook groups for online English teachers, she was in forums for online English teachers, she was actively talking on Twitter, on Instagram with other online English teachers. Whenever they talked about feedback, the kind of student feedback they needed to give after each lesson with a kid, they were kind of teaching them online and the parents needed feedback, so that needed to be written and the parents would read it and then say, okay, that's great. Like now we can pay you. So it was a core [00:43:00] integral part of the whole journey for your online teacher. We facilitated automating that feedback away. It was kind of pre AI days, although there was some machine learning involved, but that was the idea, right? The idea was just to make it easier for teachers to get feedback.
And all these teachers talking to each other about feedback in these communities were such clear signals to us that we just built a prototype, Danielle used it, sped up her day, like saved her two hours every single day and not having to do this stuff manually, and we told that into the communities, hey guys, look at this, we just built this, like we are Of you, right?
We are part of this community. We built this for you. Do you want to check it out? It's kind of free for 30 days and then we're going to figure out how much we're going to charge you. Like, I still had to stripe testkey on our production service when people tried to pay for this. That's how clear of a solution to their problem it was.
I had to switch out the test key on Stripe to the production key, the live key, for us to be able to make money in a rapid kind of [00:44:00] emergency deployment because it was so clear that people really enjoyed the product. So, In terms of the co founder debate that we're having right now, well, it's a co founder I could completely trust to be fully aligned with me because she was, and still is, my life partner, like building Feedback Panda allowed us to exit for what I'm, I guess, allowed to say is a life changing amount of money, which is why I'm sitting here in the house that a SaaS business paid for doing whatever I want on a Wednesday morning here in Canada at this point, not Berlin anymore. And, she's still with me, which is great, because that's the life we built together. And she had a very clear problem that she could clearly communicate to me. Whereas all my other co founders in the past didn't communicate well or didn't have clear problems. So if there's any learning from this, it's probably that. Combine a good problem you have with the ability to communicate it to your technical co founder and the opportunity or I guess, the idea , the business that can come out of it. It's much more likely to succeed.
Wow. Thank you so much [00:45:00] for sharing this. I think I haven't heard a more balanced view on like having co founders versus not having co founders and the story about it. Um, if anyone else in this that are currently speaker, I think Alfonso also has some maybe interesting co founder stories that he told me a couple of weeks ago, so maybe you want to share them as well?
Sure. I don't know if I, if I shared it to you, but, so for those that don't know, uh, So in the beginning of the year, I made a resolution that I wanted to have my own business. So at the time I had zero dollars of MRR and I had 50 followers. So my first idea was that, okay, I'm this technical guy. I need somebody to go and talk to people just like, you know, they have some network something because I was just like, I have my computer. I don't know anyone and I didn't know anyone. Um, so the first thing that I did [00:46:00] was talk with my friend saying that I want to start something and one of my best friends actually told me, Oh, let's do something, bro.
But yeah, I just noticed his attitude, like during the years of studying with him, in college and. He could not sit still for more than a couple of hours. Got easily distracted. So, of course, I didn't tell him that look, I don't think you have the discipline to work with something with me because I want to be like full on. I don't want to distract myself. I want to like go full on and make this happen. So I didn't tell him that but I kind of just not started anything with him. So and then okay, so that was kind of my best friend not becoming my co founder, basically, and then I talked to with another friend who was a very, very social guy.
And this guy, he's from Lisbon, where I'm from. And [00:47:00] back then I was in, in Lisbon. This is January, I think. Yeah. And this guy is like the most social person ever. He knows everybody from Lisbon. I mean, Everybody, like from all the restaurants, from all the places, he's like super social guy. And so I had this idea of creating like a QR code system where you could, you know, you're in the restaurant, you scan QR code and you pay at the table without having to ask for the waitress to come.
So you could pay in the spot, like a menu QR code, but with payments, which then we realized it was a horrible idea, but the thing was that we were working on this, we were building the MVP, and he was basically knocking door to door on the Portuguese restaurants, trying to get clients, and then, we started to stumble upon some roadblocks, like stuff didn't happen the way we wanted, so [00:48:00] maybe there was One potential client that didn't convert after all, or there was something, The software was buggy at the time and we lost our chance and you know Sometimes this stuff happens and you have to be somewhat resilient And, but his attitude was very, like, he got defeated very easily.
And I was like, bro, just get up and, you know, like, it's okay. This stuff is gonna happen. But then he would just become, like, emotionally unavailable and he would have very motivation spikes, and then he would like become depressed and yeah, it just doesn't, didn't work out because of that, and also the idea was not very good, and restaurants are tough businesses, but It was not very, very good. And yeah, those were my actually Oh, and then, okay. I spoke with this, Instagram big influencer. Basically, I met him last year in Bali because I was in Bali for [00:49:00] three months.
And I met this guy. He's actually an absolute beast on YouTube and Instagram. He's like a Instagram growth expert. Um And he's just like 21 and he has a huge following, so it kind of complimented me well, right, because he knows everybody and I don't know anybody. And then we had this idea to make like a Canva alternative, but niched down towards Instagram. So where you could create your own carousels and Instagram posts, something very niched down. And I thought, okay, this is excellent, because he has a huge following. You know, everything he says, it's the truth. So, if he just announces a product, everybody will come. And I also thought that he thought that. But basically what happened was that he was very disconnected from the product. As if he was treating the product as just an affiliate thing. So, I think it was because his experience of being an affiliate. Uh, so he was very disconnected from the product. I felt [00:50:00] like I was doing everything and he was just like leveraging the fact that, you know, I have a big following and I'll just do a YouTube video and that's it. You know, I agree that, the value that you provide is different, so he doesn't have to, you know, uh, I think it's a question of effort, right? We're 50 50, so I'm gonna put in like as much effort as you will put in, right? It doesn't really matter if I don't have a following and you have a following.
We have to be on the same page and that was another lesson for me. We weren't on the same page and it didn't work out. Because when you have a co founder, you have to be on the same page. If you have a part time job, He has to have something, otherwise he's gonna feel like he's full time and you're not or if you can only do two hours per week, uh, you know, it's expected that he'll do two hours per week as well. Or maybe there's like an agreement where, you know, certain point you'll compensate or something, but you gotta be on the [00:51:00] same page.
Yeah. Man, Alfonso, thank you so much for sharing this. That was like, that was actually really, really interesting. What I am distilling out of hearing all of your lessons so far is something that is like, I think a very kind of generic takeaway, but I think it still makes sense to say it. And that is that being a co founder can be one of the most amazing things and really compliment you and your product, help you grow a lot faster than you would have been then doing it alone. However, actually finding one of these co founders that are amazing and complimenting you is extremely, extremely hard. And as we can see, even the best friends sometimes cannot be like a really good, maybe compliment to you as an actual founder. Could break up partnerships, friendships, you name it. So, What I'm distilling is I think vetting who will be your co founder is obviously one of the most important things.
Finding that as an indie hacker, I think, can sometimes be really hard. I have people like [00:52:00] DMing me, like, have any advice of how I can find a co founder. I had like this guy that found a co founder on Reddit and they've been together for like six months. And then he found out that The guy that he thought was like really genuine actually was almost like a scammer and they had like really nice conversations. But in the end, like it turned out that his actual co founder was someone that he absolutely should not have had onboarded to the product. So finding someone that is really close to you and really compliments you, I think is really hard. So I would say that in this case I think like it's like 60, 40, having a co founder is definitely better, but you really need to find someone that is complimenting you.
I think we covered like a lot of interesting points so far. There's one more kind of question I want to throw into the group, um, that I want to talk about also that Adrian, our interview of today was also talking about in the end, and that is the topic about sharing your MRR in public. What I mean with this is that. Um, in the beginning, like the [00:53:00] past few years, it has been more and more of a growing trend of people billing in public. And then obviously as a result of this also showing their financial data, um, there's been a lot of positive impacts, I think, of people sharing how much they are making, because it certainly also motivated me.
I think one of the first like indie hackers that really publicly shared his stats was, Peter Levers and also Jon Yongfook, who we had as a speaker last week, and I think seeing these stats, seeing how much you can actually make as a Bootstrap solo founder was extremely inspiring to me and there's also another thing, posting your MRR on Twitter absolutely helps you sort of grow your audience. You probably all have noticed this. If you ever posted a tweet about like a. of your like Stripe dashboard, all of a sudden people love talking about it. They love liking it. You get like new followers and it's a bit of a crazy dopamine rush and, uh, which is absolutely great.
I have seen people sort of abusing this. [00:54:00] I have seen people maybe not being like fully honest with their stats, kind of like to exploit getting more, like a bigger audience. And so there is another, I think, downside to sharing your revenue online, which might be that, that there obviously are people out there who are always waiting for a new opportunity. And so if you're sharing that your app made 10k MRR in three days, likely there's going to be a lot of people want to copy you. So I think it's a really interesting balance of if you should share your revenue online and maybe also a better question is up until what? So maybe also just as a background for me, I've been sharing my revenue very publicly because I was so inspired, but after I hit 10K, I sort of did not see.
The big value add anymore besides obviously always getting like getting traction and like engagement with the tweet itself. But I didn't see, I saw that the kind of negatives were outweighing the positives 'cause there were more and more people sort of just like blatantly coping Helpkit, which I thought just [00:55:00] didn't make sense. And I obviously always believe that if you build a better product, it's going to be awesome. But as I said, like I'm kind of exposing myself a bit too much for the upside, I would say. Um, I know that Erwin is also publicly sharing his financials. He even has like a slash open page on Tailscan, I think, where you can see exactly how much he's making and also losing. So do you want to share a little bit about your reason that you are sharing your financials, Erwin?
Yeah, of course I can. I would like to say on the record that I'm definitely not losing money. I'm only gaining money. No, in all seriousness, I do share my metrics online. Uh, I think I started doing this right around the 400, 500 a month mark. Um, I decided to make an open page just like, and with Dom as well, just like many of the more OG, building public, um, people that shared online, I decided to do that too. And I built, indeed, built an entire slash open page. [00:56:00] It's available for anyone to see, you can go to Tailscan, go to the footer and just click on Open Startup, it's the easiest. So yeah, I do share metrics like not only monthly recurring revenue, also active subscribers, um, how much one time revenue, monthly expenses, in essence also profit, and patron web visitors. Um, and yeah, the reason for me mostly that I do this is to give Tailscan that initial push, out in the open to, you know, have people on Twitter whom are also mostly developers. Um, so it is also my target market. To get those a bit interested and hopefully also inspired, a big part of it for me is also to inspire others.
I'm always very transparent for this. It is a marketing method, so it is a way for me to grow my business. But, uh, it doesn't have to be one or the other. You can be inspired and potentially be the target market. Whether you go for the product itself is obviously, uh, your own choice. But, um I'm very transparent on that, but yeah, I [00:57:00] do occasionally, especially on LinkedIn, funnily enough, whenever I share it there, I get some people, mentioning that they're very inspired. Unfortunately, Dom, as you mentioned, yeah, it does also happen that you share information to people that in turn want to copy your product and, or see, wow, if there is this amount of money to be made with a product like this, then why am I not building that product too? Or, in some cases, why don't I click on CTRL C and just copy it? Um, so that does happen too. I think it's up and downsides. I think the bigger you grow, say right about the 10 to 20, maybe 30. A month mark, yeah, the target on your back starts to become a little bit bigger and the benefit of a couple of Twitter folks buying your product starts to become a bit smaller.
So then the real question is how much do you want to inspire others? And I guess that depends from person to person. I think eventually it probably also doesn't get that much [00:58:00] interesting. It's not very tangible when you make one versus two million a year. Most people, yeah, it's not as tangible. So, I think it's a great marketing push if your project allows for it and if the target audience that you have is aligned with your product as well as have a potential interest in the metrics, then it's definitely a thing to consider.
Also, one more thing to notice if you have a slash open page, but your IRS statement does not 100 percent align with it, obviously I would not recommend keeping it up. Yeah. That's awesome. The coping thing is a really interesting aspect because on one hand you obviously like with tweeting about your MRR, you attract new people because A lot of, there's a lot of engagement. So it gets like, the tweet gets suggested to new people. They're going to see it.
They eventually going to get inspired. And I think overall there is definitely like a huge benefit of sharing your MR, especially in the very early stages, like people love seeing people grow, especially Lower, thousands [00:59:00] of MRR. I think this is an amazing way of like just getting traction and also for you to grow a little bit, your audience on Twitter, because it certainly helps. But yeah, I think at one point, does it really make a lot of sense? It, like you said, it depends on, the fact that do you really want to be inspired? So even more people, or is it more just like one part I maybe want to mention with this is like, if your whole identity on Twitter consists out of posting MRR posts, I'm not really sure I really am fond of that.
I've seen people on Twitter doing that, just literally all they do is post the MRR. And, uh, that gets them obviously a lot of engagement, but if you don't share also the downsides, like I would say like the downs, right, it's a, it creates sort of like a false picture, you know, you kind of are getting people into thinking, Oh, this business is just constantly growing and everything is amazing. And so you kind of doing the opposite. You kind of harming a bit the Indie Hacker community. If you're just posting your amazing MRR, which like, to [01:00:00] be fair, if your MRR is hockey stick growth without. Any churn. Okay. So be it. I hope it is, but I think also the whole building public community kind of revolves around also sharing your downsides, maybe even more your downsides.
Cause that kind of makes you, I guess, more human and, uh, yeah, we are slowly wrapping up episode three of. Bootstr. First of all, I want to say thank you to all the speakers tuning in. It was absolutely amazing to hear all your talks. I think maybe one more, Share us, your last thought Arvid and then we're gonna wrap it up.
It's crazy. I'm trying to write a book on building in public right now and what Erwin has been saying is almost literally what I was writing in the first couple chapters. It is really bizarre how well you just, and how eloquently you phrased the difference. Between building a public and just sharing the good stuff, that is such a big, an important difference here. Like, building a public is everything, right? It's not just MRRs, it's not the highlight reel, it's not like the shiny, glossy [01:01:00] stuff. It's like the actual journey, allowing people to connect with you on a personal level, not just seeing that you make some money. Like, that is super superficial. And I think that makes the whole difference.
Like, just sharing numbers. That is marketing at its worst, sharing numbers in the context of an actual journey is marketing at its best. And the transparency of this Actively saying, I'm doing this to attract customers, to attract peers, potential partners, interest, attention, investment, whatever it is, that's what makes this a good thing, right? If that is lacking, if that transparency is not there, then you sharing numbers is nothing more than just waving big signs in front of, like, a traffic light that you're buying gold or something. It's just weird, it's intrusive, and it's fake. But if there is a transparent, like, relational layer that people can connect with, then it becomes extremely powerful.
And it's really cool to see that people are understanding that it's, that there will be copies, there will be clones out there. People will try to build your [01:02:00] thing, and some may succeed, some might get a couple customers, most really won't, because they can only copy, again, the surface, right? They can copy and paste your landing page. Cannot copy and paste your backend stuff. They can also not copy and paste your understanding of the actual problems in the field that you're solving. Like the years of learning that you had before you came up with your idea. They're not going to have that and they cannot copy this. So if you invite attention into your business because you're looking for collaboration, you're looking for partners, you're looking for customers, you will also invite that kind of attention.
That's just a byproduct. So those clones, they pop up and they just vanish just as fast. Most of them, most of the time. So. The last thing, and I know you're wrapping up, 10, 20, 30k. I've heard all of these numbers as points where people stop. I think, TransistorFM, like Justin Jackson and John Buda, they stopped at like around 20 ish, 25 as well, because they also saw diminishing returns. Because again, and I'm going to close with this, sorry for this, like for bootstrappers, building a public is a [01:03:00] marketing method of many that is Kind of seasonal. You use it in the beginning to set yourself up for more success, for more opportunities down the road. And as you grow, as you professionalize, as you kind of also increase the risk of your business, you change your methods to other ways of marketing, to other ways of doing outreach.
You can still keep building a public to inspire, to teach. That's what I try to do, and that's what a lot of founders in our community try to do. Thank God, because it actually helps so many people, but it's not as important for your business anymore. It becomes important for your personal brand as an expert in the community. So for that you can keep doing it and it's great, but the business itself Or the businesses you have, they might not benefit from it as much anymore. Thank you for letting me speak. Thank you for hosting this. It's really cool. I'm very impressed, so thanks a lot.
Thank you for your thoughts, Arvid. That means a lot the compliment. Dom and I aim to do this every single Wednesday. So you're very welcome to join in every [01:04:00] Wednesday, exactly at this time. As for everyone else that is listening in and has spoken, or maybe next time, prepare your mic if you do want to join in. Very welcome. Arvid, yeah, just a comment on what you mentioned very briefly. I think you're hitting it exactly the nail on the head. I think I posted two days ago, please don't only share your revenue numbers. Please don't use your following for your own dopamine hit. Try to educate your audience instead. And I think you may use that quote, I think that sums it up.
I personally also try to give some substance and whoever is considering building in public, please do always share what you've been working on. Everyone always loves to see this, uh, give some substance as to how you arrived or what your methods are. Just, uh, Give some back to the community that you're taking from as well. I think honestly, if everyone does this a little bit more, um, then we'll end up with perhaps one of the best communities online in the world. At least if you ask me, that's definitely the case. [01:05:00] All right. This was, Bootstr episode number three already. For the third week in a row, we've been talking about bootstrapping, building in public, and all the challenges and struggles that come with it, as well as the perks, of course. And we will be back again on Wednesday next week, exactly the same time as now. I can't announce the guest yet, but I think you definitely want to tune in next week, is all I'm going to say. So yeah, don't forget, you can follow me or Dom, we'll be posting out a couple of times with a set reminder button as well for next week. Alright, thank you very much everyone. And I say have a great night, morning, afternoon, wherever you are. Enjoy, talk to you soon.
Bye bye.